Hey all, I'm new:w00t

The thing I was wondering about:

The night Dumbeldore got Harry from Hagrid, Hagrid told him something like: "I thing I'm going to take sirius's bike back" - I was thinking: why didn't D tell something to H? after all, he knew by then that sirius was potentianly dangerous - as far as D knows, He could have killed hagrid as well. Why not telling him not to bother with the bike? Could it be that D already knew that Sirius was captured?



Maybe It's just me. but I always had the feeling that D knew about Sirius being inocent all the time. The way he accepted The trios story without any questions, the way he talks about sirius (brave loyal man) how is it possible that D, such a wise and smart wizard who probably knew Sirius well at that time - believed he actually betrayed them? If he didn't, than why did he let him go to azkaban? was he helpless? was there something else?

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p072.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jesseblack>Jesse Black[/url]&nbsp;[img]http://images.google.co.il/images?q=tbn:PY5z849xHXgJ:http://www.galleryone.com/images/kate/weiss%2520-%2520chocolate%2520lab%2520puppy.[/img] at: 3/13/05 3:52 pm

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Maybe It's just me. but I always had the feeling that D knew about Sirius being inocent all the time. The way he accepted The trios story without any questions

Those are two different issues. In OotP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he is an accomplished Legilimens, as is Voldemort. All Dumbledore has to do is enter someone's thoughts to know if they are telling the truth. The thing that I find rather pleasant about Dumbledore is that he always gives someone the opportunity to tell the truth (as when he asked Tom Riddle if there was something he wanted to tell him in CoS). Also remember that Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper - the change to Peter was surely a last minute change. And Sirius was not arrested until the following day - events were happening so quickly that I don't believe he ever considered warning Hagrid against Sirius. Again, with his Legilimens ability, he may never have felt the need to doubt Sirius up until the time that Sirius was arrested because of Peter's false claims.



Now that I think about it, how good was Peter at Occlumency? Was he prepared by Voldemort? Because otherwise, being such a weak-willed slob, how could he hide his traitorous intent from Dumbledore or anyone else in the Order who was a Legilimens as well?

:paw<span style="color:blue;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:x-small;] Solitaire: Official Tattoo Inspector, Domestic Goddess, Corrupter of Thought Trains, Banana Buyer, Hopelessly devoted to Hugh...(and the family, and Sirius and Immeritus...)[/color]

I never really thought abou it. I wonder how long it was after James and Lily died that Sirius hunted peter down.

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I wonder how long it was after James and Lily died that Sirius hunted peter down.

Almost immediately. Go back to the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA when Sirius explained it all to Harry You may notice that a lot of the regular posters here know the texts really well - we've read and reread and analyzed them over several threads. You may want to read a lot of the threads on some of the other discussion boards, such as Order of the Phoenix, Harry Potter Before OotP, The Marauders and Other HP Characters. If you're new, you may find answers to some of your questions in those threads - it may seem like an intimidating amount of reading, but there is a lot of insight to be gleaned from the discussions.



When you're new, it's very important to read the following before you begin posting a lot:



First Stop for Newbies



and read the following as well...



READ or PERISH: Info you need.Welcome to Immeritus.

:paw<span style="color:blue;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:x-small;] Solitaire: Official Tattoo Inspector, Domestic Goddess, Corrupter of Thought Trains, Banana Buyer, Hopelessly devoted to Hugh...(and the family, and Sirius and Immeritus...)[/color]

Oh but I did (in case it was addressed to me)

I still wonder about dumledore though. He didn't know about peter but still, he knew sirius and he should have known he would never do such thing.

The question is did he know that Sirius was captured by the time hagrid brought Harry. Never mind, I think its my theory about Dumledore being evil speaking<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START --><img src=http://pages.prodigy.net/siriusblack/boards/smilies/blush.gif ALT=":blush]<!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->Edited by: <A HREF=http://p072.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jesseblack>Jesse Black[/url]&nbsp;[img]http://images.google.co.il/images?q=tbn:PY5z849xHXgJ:http://www.galleryone.com/images/kate/weiss%2520-%2520chocolate%2520lab%2520puppy.[/img] at: 3/11/05 8:48 am

This is an interesting poit you've raised, Jesse (and welcome, by the way!)



We had an excellent discussion a while back on the subject of what does your copy say about Sirius's bike? (Read the thread here , if you wish). After some consultation with people at Bloomsbury and Scholastic, what we discovered was that earlier editions of PS/SS had Hagrid saying that he was going to take Sirius's bike back to him. After PoA was released and it became evident that Sirius gave Hagrid the bike knowing that he wouldn't need it again, subsuquent editions of PS/SS were changed to reflect Hagrid saying that he needed to get the bike away. This seems to indicate simply that a flying motorbike in a Muggle neighbourhood is a bit too conspicuous to be sensible. In this context, Dumbledore didn't really need to be worried about Hagrid's in this regard.



HOWEVER, now that you mention it, it does seem odd that Dumbledore, believing as he did that Sirius had been the Secret Keeper, and knowing that only the Secret Keeper could have betrayed the Potters' location, didn't seem to respond to the fact that Hagrid had seen Sirius at Godric's Hollow. It should have raised suspicion, or at least shock in his mind. Why in the world would Sirius have been lurking round at the scene of his alleged crime?



There has also been a lot of discussion on the question of whether or not Dumbledore muight be evil. Personally I don't think he is, but I do see him as more of a fatalist than most people are. I think he has a strong awareness of the limitations of his capacity to control Hogwarts, the wizarding world and the war. Look at how he submits to being ousted by the governing body in CoS, and how he continues to allow Lockhart to teach DADA although it's evident nobody is learning anything from him. His philosophy seems to be aligned with what Hagrid suggests to Harry:

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what would come would come... and he would have to meet it when it did (GoF last page)

And maybe this quality can be seen as a strength rather than a weakness. Dumbledore messes up when he starts trying to assume too much control; Sirius's death can ultimately be attributed to DD's deliberate withholding of information from Harry. Maybe a little fatalism isn't a bad thing?

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p072.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ginevra6>Ginevra6[/url] at: 3/12/05 4:42 pm

The thing that bothers me about DD is that I couldn't really trust him - yeah I know he's smart and all but still, always the feeling of "there's something more going in his head". Thats why I thought he knew about Sirius being Innocent all along but for some reason he did nothing about it:no

I'm not sure he's "evil" but I do think he's not that good either.

Some of my friends suggested maybe the whole thing with the stone in book one was closely watched and controlled by him to prepar Harry for what will come - after all - how could he not notice that something is going on?



BTW - my book has Sirius in it.

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"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." - Sirius Black

I am not so sure I see that. DD evil? No, definately not. I think he is doing his best to look after Harry but sometimes he gets it wrong. He makes mistakes, as he explained at the end of OotP. He has numerous powers that make people respect him but also scared of him. But he is still capable of being deceived and just messing up, making the wrong choices.



This other thread that I just came across in HP before OotP has a lot of interesting thoughts on DD's Extra Powers and others beliefs on whether he is evil or his powers. You should take a look.



Question? Dumbledores extra powers.<span style="color:blue ;font-size:small;]Weasley[/color]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p072.ezboard.com/bsiriusblackfanclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=weasley@siriusblackfanclub>weasley[/url] at: 3/13/05 4:40 pm

I've never thought about it before, but now through this convisation I wonder not that DD didn't warn Hagrid, but Why did he send Hagrid for Harry?!
Look, when the news of the attack on the Potters reached him, then, even if he already knew that V lost his powers, he might understand that there might be many Death Eaters around (I mean who would know that V would come for Harry alone? It's more logical that he would take some of his supporters)
why didn't he send someone more powerful than Hagrid (who is a good man but a very poor wizard) in case there would be some Death Eaters lurking around? If Sirius was evil (as everyone believed) than Hagrid could not stand against him (more than 2 seconds))) If Sirius was evil there would be easy for him to take Harry with him despite of Hagrid or even to kill Harry before Hagrid's eyes.
And that owful Bellatrix? If she tormented to madness two aurors ONE YEAR AFTER Potters'death, couldn't it be that she appear in Godric's Hollow that night? what Hagrid would do to her?
why on earth didn't DD come for Harry himself?

I don't think that Dumbledore would have had the time to get Harry himself. The entire Wizarding World was probably more or less chaotic that day, and DD must have had more than enough to take care of with Hogwarts and all.

I'm not that convinced that there would have been Death Eaters still hanging around Godrics Hollow, either. A house blowing up is, of course, going to generate some attention, and the Ministry would have been on their way almost immediately. If there had been any Death Eaters there, I think they would've got away as fast as possible. I also think that Hagrid would have been able to defend himself -remember in OotP, his Giant blood makes it just about impossible to bring him down. I don't know if it will protect him against Avada Kedavra, but Hagrid definitely has a bigger chance of escaping smaller curses.

Yeah, I think that Hagrid probably could have stood a decent chance against a few death eaters, especially since that would probably be a circumstance in which he would be allowed to used magic anyway. And even if he wasn't, I can't imagine that he would wander around with his pink umbrella on a night like that!

Something just occurred to me when I read this:

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Also remember that Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper - the change to Peter was surely a last minute change.

In his meeting with HRH in the Hogsmeade cave in GoF, didn't Sirius complain about how Mr. Crouch had sent him to Azkaban WITHOUT a trial? How could Dumbledore have testified if there hadn't been a trial? Yet he clearly states, somewhere near the end of PoA, that he did. I don't know why I never noticed this before...

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in his meeting with HRH in the Hogsmeade cave in GoF, didn't Sirius complain about how Mr. Crouch had sent him to Azkaban WITHOUT a trial? How could Dumbledore have testified if there hadn't been a trial? Yet he clearly states, somewhere near the end of PoA, that he did. I don't know why I never noticed this before...

I don't know the particulars of the British justice system, but it seems that Rowling has the WW follow UK social precedent in certain ways. Perhaps Dumbledore testified at something similar to a preliminary hearing, the sort that we have in the US, where the judge is trying to determine if there is reason or not to bind the defendant over for trial. So Dumbledore gives evidence at a hearing, or to the MoM enforcers, but because of the quickly changing state of things, there never is a proper trial.

I have to admit, that's an inconsistancy that occasionally bothers me, but I look at from the plot point of view that things were just insane around the time of 10/81 and the Ministry had a convenient scapegoat in Sirius, so they didn't bother with the formalities. It's the same way of thinking that allowed Fudge to simply unleash the dementor on Barty Crouch Jr. without getting further evidence from him. The prejudice against DE's is so high, that MoM officials have a sort of "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality when it comes to them.

I think he probably knew, Dumbledore seems to have the knack of knowing whats going on.

He probably diddnt want to alarm Hagrid by saying he knew who had done it as the news probably hadnt even spread yet and all in the wizarding world would be finding out that James and Lilly were dead soon enough any way.

He knew he was to threat, he probably knew he was innocent allready.

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me; I think that Dumbledore would have done something if he had known that Sirius really was innocent. The only people who knew would have been death eaters. And that brings me to another issue that I've been dying to discuss: The ministry supposedly believed that Sirius was Voldemort's right-hand man. Wouldn't they have found it a little odd, that in however many slimebags they captured who gave them names (like Karkaroff), that none of them mentioned Sirius? I know, Karkaroff said that the DEs never knew many of the others, but you would think that Voldy's right-hand person, whoever they may be, would have been better known than most. Somebody is probably going to say that I'm looking too deep into it, but something about it just doesn't feel right to me.

HermioneGranger89 wrote:

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me; I think that Dumbledore would have done something if he had known that Sirius really was innocent. The only people who knew would have been death eaters. And that brings me to another issue that I've been dying to discuss: The ministry supposedly believed that Sirius was Voldemort's right-hand man. Wouldn't they have found it a little odd, that in however many slimebags they captured who gave them names (like Karkaroff), that none of them mentioned Sirius? I know, Karkaroff said that the DEs never knew many of the others, but you would think that Voldy's right-hand person, whoever they may be, would have been better known than most. Somebody is probably going to say that I'm looking too deep into it, but something about it just doesn't feel right to me.

Hmm, good point
Maybe the ministery thought that the death eaters were to scared to revelal his name because he's so close to Voldie
Or maybe they didn't care much... you know, as long as the people think they are doing something... so what if one of them is innocent?