I don't know when exactly he's been careful with his life. But we've seen him really worried about Harry in the 4th book. But now that you're asking me to find Sirius being careful, exact text of him being careful, I don't think I could find it. My mistake if I can't. Tomorrow, I will go to the library, check out the 3rd and 4th books again, and comb through them for evidence, and if I find it, i'll post it... I think I can give you evidence from the 4th book right now because I just finished it (for the 6th or 7th time, I think)...It won't be exact, but I think i've memorized most of the book. You know how worried Sirius was after Harry's name came out of the GoF? And how he kept telling Harry to be careful and don't go wandering off, ect. ect. And how he told Harry to call him Snuffles and not write too much in letters, ect ect? I call that being careful with his life as well as Harry's, because Harry would have been in so much trouble if people knew he'd been in contact with him all this time, and hadn't given him in. I think that's being careful with his friends' lives. I dunno, I just see it in his character, that while he's reckless with himself, he's careful with his friends because he doesn't want to lose them. Maybe i'm the only one who sees him like that.

(spam) You know, I like you. You make me think. It hurts, but I think it's expanding my brain. And helping me annoy people at school by reading something, stopping, and saying "what the hell?" Like today when I raed that Harry didn't know Arabella Figg was in contact with DD (OotP) when it said in the GoF for the people to go find Mundungus Fletcher and Arabella Figg...He should have known she was in contact with DD. Anyway. *shrugs* (/spam)

*nods, long ears flapping*

There are many examples where Sirius is very protective of Harry in GoF, and also in OotP. He risks his own safety, comes back from his safe place somewhere South, breaks into a wizard's house, to talk to Harry, because he feels he needs to give him some information, and also I think because he senses that Harry needs a friend/parental figure to talk to. He doesn't put Harry's life at risk with this (because the fires are not watched, and Dumbledore must have allowed this contact to happen via the fireplace--I doubt it would have been possible otherwise). He meets them in Hogsmeade, but away from prying eyes, walks them to and from the cave, and tells them not to sneak out of Hogwarts to look for him. He's there at the Third Task in DD's office and immediately goes out on Order business when asked.

In OotP, he sticks to orders from DD most of the time, although he disagrees with them (I am sure he would have told Harry a lot more about Voldemort but wasn't allowed). His visits in the fireplace seem to be authorised by DD (because he's giving Ron a message from his mum, which she would not have given him if he was doing it without authorisation), but they are risky for Sirius, not for Harry. Yes, Harry would be in trouble, but he would not be the one who'd be snogged by a dementor. The only time when he gets huffy with Harry because he wants to meet him in Hogsmeade for fun, and Harry refuses, also is about Sirius risking his life, not Harry. And in the DoM, Sirius repeatedly tells Harry to get out of the room while he, Sirius, is in the firing line.

So, I definitely think Sirius was careful with Harry's life, and would have been just as careful with James' life--Sirius to me is a person who would put his friends before himself. He was a risk taker, but only with his own life.

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I dunno, I just see it in his character, that while he's reckless with himself, he's careful with his friends because he doesn't want to lose them.

Definitely. There are a GAZILLION places in the books where that happens, and WinkyTeatowel (What can I call you? That's too long... ) brilliantly pointed out many of them. I think what BaraRose said before, what I quoted, is practically a fact. We know that Sirius is reckless--if you asked me right now to give one word that explains Sirius, I would immediately say reckless. (Well, after 'sexy' of course... ) He has proved himself many times to be reckless, but NOT with other peoples'--actually, not with his friends'--lives.

Although on the topic of Sirius being careful specifically with Harry's life...well, Harry definitely counts as a 'friend', and therefore, Sirius would not want to lose him, and would be careful with his life. But I think there's more involved--I think that Sirius constantly treats Harry, and thinks of Harry, as if he were James. When Molly has her little outburst in OOTP, and she says "He [Harry]'s not James, Sirius!", that really struck a chord. At that moment, I felt a surge of emotion. Molly's right--Sirius constantly acts as if he has his best friend back. Sirius feels extremely guilty for the Potters' death, and with Harry, he almost feels as if he's getting a second chance. And even if it wasn't Sirius' fault that the Potters' were betrayed and ultimately murdered, he would still feel guilty. So maybe Sirius is extra careful with Harry's life, not only because he's his godson, but because he feels like he's having a second chance with his best friend.

Aww...that's so sad, now that I think about it...*sniff*

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spam) You know, I like you. You make me think. It hurts, but I think it's expanding my brain.

*laughs* I'm glad. I really, really like to be annoying to this point, and it's rare to find someone who's willing to keep up with me, even when sometimes I just stick to a point to see if I can manage to drive people insane. It's one of my hobbies, what can I tell you? And, thinking is good, I swear. I figure, if my brain has to hurt, well, someone elses should, too!\

Glad you're sticking with me. *grins*

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So, I definitely think Sirius was careful with Harry's life, and would have been just as careful with James' life--Sirius to me is a person who would put his friends before himself. He was a risk taker, but only with his own life.

In a way, I agree Winky, I really do. He doesn't put the lives of the people he cares about in jeopardy, not when he's thinking. But, is he really thinking things through all the time? I doubt it. In fact, I'd like to think he really wasn't thinking when he told Snape when to find Remus, or when he dragged Ron into the Shack. The point here is, if his rational mind isn't in charge of his body all the time, then it doesn't really matter what he's thinking or not thinking, he's not really a man who'll go by what his head says, he'll go by what his heart says, and oh, if he were only to listen to both, he'd be better off.

gAlLy wrote:

I'd like to think he really wasn't thinking when he told Snape when to find Remus, or when he dragged Ron into the Shack.

Since Sirius was 15-17 years old when he sent Snape after the werewolf Remus, I am not sure this is the best evidence of his emotional state as an adult. When he dragged Ron into the tunnel to the Shrieking Shack, he was a hunted man on a desparate mission to protect Harry from a disguised Peter Pettigrew.

I can admit your point that Sirius was sometimes reckless, but neither Snape nor (at that time) Ron meant anything special to Sirius; so I don't see those as the best evidence of your point.

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What can I call you? That's too long

*strokes long ears*

Just call me Winky

I also agree with Derek--the Snape incident was certainly an awful thing Sirius did, but it's the only one we know of where Sirius was so thoughtless that he risked the life of a student, and also his best friend. And yes, he didn't think things through, acted very impulsively--but again, do we really know all the details? It could have been provoked--now, that doesn't excuse it--but if it was in a fight, when Snape and Sirius were arguing, and in the spur of the moment, Sirius shouted at Snape 'well, if you're such a courageous guy who can sneak around trying to find out what's wrong with my friend, let's see if you can handle this...' then obviously, Sirius didn't think, but in the heat of an argument, often things are said and done that later on are deeply regretted.

Also, when Sirius was hunting Pettigrew down, he was doing quite a few things that were, I wouldn't call it simply reckless, but also highly irrational and not right: slashing the Fat Lady, breaking into Gryff commons and dragging Ron into the Shrieking Shack. However, his break out had been driving by two thoughts: 'get Pettigrew' and 'protect Harry'. He was a very driven man then, desperate to right the wrong that was done to him and the Potters, and also to protect Harry, and after twelve years with the dementors of Azkaban, I don't think anybody can expect him to be a rational thinker. It is still amazing that he was so strong and didn't lose his mind. He also responded quickly to Harry when he asked both him and Lupin not to kill Pettigrew. That shows after all these years in the hellhole Azkaban, he was still able to respond to kindness and mercy.

It's late, and I was going to write more on the idea that Sirius regarded Harry as a kind of 'returned James'. Well, I shall make it brief and elaborate more. I think that Sirius was very aware that Harry was not James. He was also very aware that Harry was not an adult, otherwise he wouldn't have been so protective of him. However, of course he was reminded of James, since Harry looked so much like him, and I am sure seeing Harry brought a lot of happy memories of James back, as well as guilt, because Sirius did feel guilty for the Potters' death, since it was he who suggested the secretkeeper switch. I would say that Sirius took his Godfather role extremely serious (nearly wrote sirius there, lol), because James had entrusted Harry's welfare to him, and in a way Harry was nearly James' gift or legacy to Sirius. Not too sure if I express this right, what I mean is, Sirus does not see Harry as James, but sees James through Harry, and probably sees Lily through Harry as well. It's more like a two-tiered emotional thing. It's like what happens in families as well--when a parent dies, you see them in the children or grandchildren, and siblings see the lost parent in each other. But you are very aware that it's not the same person, it's more that the person has left something of themselves behind in others.

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I can admit your point that Sirius was sometimes reckless, but neither Snape nor (at that time) Ron meant anything special to Sirius; so I don't see those as the best evidence of your point.

I think you're missing my point, then. Sirius told Snape where to find Remus, and if he'd been thinking, he would have realized he wasn't only putting Snape in danger, he was condeming Remus, either way. Condeming him to killing a fellow classmate, being expelled from the school, or even just having people find out about the one thing that he's always been desperate to hide. So, unless he didn't care about Remus, at all, which I don't believe, it's safe to assume he wasn't thinking. At all.

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And yes, he didn't think things through, acted very impulsively--but again, do we really know all the details? It could have been provoked--now, that doesn't excuse it--but if it was in a fight, when Snape and Sirius were arguing, and in the spur of the moment, Sirius shouted at Snape 'well, if you're such a courageous guy who can sneak around trying to find out what's wrong with my friend, let's see if you can handle this...' then obviously, Sirius didn't think, but in the heat of an argument, often things are said and done that later on are deeply regretted.

That's the way I imagine it, and no, we don't know all the details ...yes, maybe Snape provoked him ...but so what? The point still remains, either Sirius was careless, or he didn't think. We all want to assume the later, he just didn't think. Wow, what a wonderful excuse that makes ...not.

I enjoy trying to keep up with you, gAIly. It's fun. Mrs. Cleaver will be very happy that my brain has expanded and I say "HEY! That makes no sense because A doesn't agree with B and B is like....K!"

When it comes to the Shrieking Shack incident with Sirius and Snape, I'd have to agree with Derek, that it was a heat of the moment thing that happened when they were word-fighting. So he definently wouldn't have thought that through, and that could be a reason why he thought Peter would be better suited as a secret keeper. Also, he really was young at the time...I mean, why do young kids in real life incidents drink and drive and do drugs and all that idiotic stuff? If they thought it through, they would know they're not only injuring themselves, but other people. But they're young and stupid. And i'm including myself in this because i'm 17, and I do stupid things all the time. I don't drink or do drugs, but i'd call it stupid to have my horse gallop full speed into a lowhanging tree branch and nearly knock myself off while skinning my face...But that's another story...

I also agree with...whoever said that he probably doesn't think things all the way through (i'm sorry, I can't find out who said that...)...Because if he'd thought the SK thing through, then he would have said "Wow, Peter could be a spy too...But I know i'm not the spy, and DD's not the spy, so it should be me or him...Or James could be his own SK! WOW! He definently can't be the spy!" Maybe Azkaban...what's the word, "addled?" his brain a little bit...

*scratches long ears*

Well we know that Sirius never got over the fact that it was he who came up with the idea to switch secretkeepers. He must have asked himself a thousand times why on earth did he not suspect Peter.

And that's the question I have, too. I really don't think it was just a question of 'Sirius didn't think things through.' There were James and Lily, too, who thought Peter would make a good secretkeeper. If there had been an obvious flaw in Sirius' proposal, they wouldn't have gone with it.

I wonder if it doesn't all come down to Peter's manipulation. He was totally underestimated, and he did manage to fool everybody, even Dumbledore. He spied for over a year under DDs nose, and as far as we know, he didn't suspect Peter at all. At the same time, Snape was doing his double-agent game, and he didn't seem to know that the spy was Peter either (I suspect LV didn't tell him, although according to Sirius, there were Death Eaters in Azkaban, who knew that Peter had been the spy).

Remaining undetected for that long, was quiet an achievement for somebody who had been considered as a weak (or at least weaker) wizard.

We know (from the Pensieve hazing incident with Snape) that both James and Sirius were not a little arrogant. Thus, like LV later on, they may have overlooked what to others might have been an obvious risk: that in spite of being a coward, Peter might have the gumption to switch sides.

DD might well have noticed or even worried about this arrogance. Though too classy to call attention to it (people have to make their own choices, after all, and DD thought James would use Sirius, which would have been fairly safe), DD did offer to be their secret-keeper himself.

P.S. I find I do not seem to encounter the posting error message if I Preview first.

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At the same time, Snape was doing his double-agent game, and he didn't seem to know that the spy was Peter either.

Winky--I think at that time Snape was still strictly on LV's side, was he not? Or maybe he was contemplating going to DD to tell him about how LV interpreted the prophecy that Snape had conveyed to him. You know how in PoA it says that one of DD's 'spies' tipped him off about it? Maybe this was Snape, right after he switched sides....So Snape was the one who told Lv AND DD about the prophecy...Anyway, that's off topic...sorry about that!

Like derek pointed out, DD did offer to be the Potter's secret keeper himself. (Woulda coulda shoulda--if only DD had been the SK, then none of this would have happened!!! ARRGG!!!) If Sirius had been thinking rationally when he suggested switching to Peter, then why wouldn't he have just suggested DD? DD would have been even BETTER than Sirius as the SK, and WAY less risky then Peter. Maybe Sirius WASN'T thinking rationally--like you all pointed out before...maybe he was so concerned for his friends' safety, he did a stupid thing, trying to bluff his way through. Or maybe he even suspected Dumbledore??

So we all agree Sirius wasn't thinking rationally, and if he wasn't, it means he was a little careless, and if he's careless, it's becuase he rushes into decisions and doesn't think things through.

BaraRose, I know what you mean. When I first started picking fights with the original Siriuser gang, way back when this boards didn't exist, I felt like my brain was expanding every day! It was fun!

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We know (from the Pensieve hazing incident with Snape) that both James and Sirius were not a little arrogant. Thus, like LV later on, they may have overlooked what to others might have been an obvious risk: that in spite of being a coward, Peter might have the gumption to switch sides.

Arrogance is another flaw that might have played a factor in all of this, after all, arrogance is what makes you think you can't possibly be wrong, and Sirius was seen to suffer from this.

I think, as much as we've heard about everyone underestimating Peter, and obviously, they did, aren't we now giving him too much credit? From what we've heard, from what we see on that Pensive scene, and from all JKR has told us, Peter wasn't a brilliant strategist playing dumb. He was, what he was, what Sirius took 12 years in Azkaban to realize, a weak person who liked to hide under the shadow of people more powerful than him.

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He was, what he was, what Sirius took 12 years in Azkaban to realize, a weak person who liked to hide under the shadow of people more powerful than him.

....or at least, that's what Sirius thinks. Notice how in PoA, Lupin's conversation with Peter is WAY more calm than Sirius' conversation with Peter. Of course, this is normal, because he just spent 12 years in that horrid prison mourning his 2 best friends because of that little traitor. But Lupin, who at the time, lost so much more, and has so much more problems in life, (notably, his 'furry little' one!) speaks calmly with him. Well, we all know that Lupin is more rational, cautious, and calmer than Sirius. I'm not trying to start up a whole "Sirius vs. Lupin" thing; it's just a fact. But my point is, Sirius thinks what he wants to think. He's arrogant and immature in that way. Sirius went along thinking of Peter as "a weak person who liked to hide under the shadow of people more powerful than him", like Gally said. I mean, I am a huge PeterHater, but Sirius will never admit, that Peter had to have had SOME kind of brain to pull all this off.

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"Of course," Lupin breathed. "So simple...so brilliant...he cut it off himself?"

So Peter had to have been at least a little clever to think of that whole plan...even Lupin admits it. Sirius would never admit it, but deep down inside he knows it's true. Peter outsmarted them. And this was after his powerful master had fallen. Also, Peter had been tricking them, passing information right under their noses, for a year beforehand!

However, I can't help but think it's a little too convenient...Peter is the spy, and then all of a sudden, he is made the SK! How convenient for LV! Do you think their was something else involved? Maybe Sirius was imerius'd or something...

Wow, do I go on tangents! Sorry 'bout that...

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I'm not trying to start up a whole "Sirius vs. Lupin" thing

You're not? Tsk, tsk. Too bad.

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Sirius thinks what he wants to think. He's arrogant and immature in that way. Sirius went along thinking of Peter as "a weak person who liked to hide under the shadow of people more powerful than him", like Gally said. I mean, I am a huge PeterHater, but Sirius will never admit, that Peter had to have had SOME kind of brain to pull all this off.

Oh, me agrees. Isn't that what I've been trying to say all along? That's exactly what led Sirius to the conclusion that Remus was the spy, and his assumption about Peter also helped the fact. Since Peter wasn't smart enough for it, it must be Remus, whom he knew to be smart.

I think it was just ...convinient. LV wasn't expecting it to be that convinient, but he wasn't mad to have it that way. *laughs*

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So we all agree Sirius wasn't thinking rationally

*laughs, long ears flapping*

Not me, sorry

I think Sirius was actually thinking as rationally as he could then, with the knowledge he had at the time. Of course, once the Potters' were killed, he knew what Peter had done (and didn't need 12 years to work this out), but before that, I don't think he was the only one who was fooled.

Dumbledore suspected somebody close to the Potters was the spy, but didn't know who. And if DD doesn't even know...

Snape turned spy for DD about a year before the Potters were killed (see GoF).

Also, James and Lily didn't take DD up on his offer. If they wanted DD, there was no way Sirius could have talked them out of it. I suspect that they didn't want to burden him with more than he was already doing, although, he was the safest bet. Mind you...as we saw in HBP, he was not immortal either (unless you believe he is not dead, which is a possibility).

I do think Peter was cleverer than most people gave him credit for. People who are weak can still be very devious, precisely because they have a strong urge to protect themselves. Remember, he managed to find LV, and helped him to come back to power, which nobody else had managed for 13 years! So, there is more to Peter than meets the eye.

James and Sirius were arrogant, but I consider Sirius wanting to change secretkeepers showed that he had doubts in his own invincibility, so he wasn't as arrogant as to think, that LV couldn't get him or force him to reveal the secret.

I think their biggest mistake was not to tell Dumbledore of the switch, but maybe they were worried that they would be overheard. Or maybe Dumbledore was away, was busy, was under some sort of threat? We just don't know...